¿Provocan los Videojuegos gente violenta?
177 Ocurrencias Escrito por Alex Guerrero el 1.12.06 a las 01:19.
Laia me reta en los comentarios del post sobre las hamburguesas gigantes a discutir sobre si los juegos generan violencia, y como he salido competitivo del gimnasio, le acepto el reto. Y como además esto no es El Economist, olvidáos de ver los dos puntos de vista. Lo que viene a continuación es una apología de los videojuegos. Científicamente probada. Todo verdad. Convincente. Ahí va...Para empezar, no hay evidencia sólida que demuestre que los juegos son malos para la gente. Y la poca que hay, señala justo el punto contrario: que pueden ser positivos (fuente). Como señala el artículo, los nuevos medios siempre sufren el acoso de los neófobos: Sócrates despreciaba los textos frente a la tradición oral porque no incentivaban la memoria; el Walz y el baile de salón era visto como una majadería y algo pecaminoso a principios del siglo XXI; el rock and roll era la voz de satanás y un incentivo para la violencia y el caos a mediados del siglo XX.
El perfil medio del jugador es menor de 40 años, mientras que el perfil medio de las personas que se oponen a la existencia misma de esos juegos suele coincidir con las generaciones más adultas.Y como también señala el artículo, los videojuegos no generan realmente un problema de adicción: el teenager medio norteamericano dedica unas 13 horas a jugar, mientras que a ver la tele le dedica más de 25 (hay problemas mayores, chicos). Así que corramos hacia el asunto: ¿generan violencia?
Vamos a ser rigurosos: queremos saber si los juegos que son muy violentos generan gente violenta. Y queremos controlar por sesgo de selección (que no sean los ya violentos los que se ponen a jugar a esos juegos) y por causalidad (que exista un mecanismo micro que explique cómo jugar a matar gente virtual/irreal lleva al mecanismo mental de querer matar gente en la vida real, o golpearla, o tener una personalidad violenta.
A nivel macro sabemos lo que está sucediendo (ver gráfica): la violencia y el crimen en EEUU no han parado de descender, pero la venta de videojuegos se ha multiplicado muchísimo, hasta convertirse en el negocio más rentable, por encima del cine y la música juntos. Osea que vamos a tener que pensar en el nivel micro porque, desde luego, la tendencia macro actual no parece indicar que los videojuegos estén produciendo nuevas generaciones cada vez más violentas (y su uso ahora es mucho más intenso que hace un lustro, o una década).A nivel micro, ¿qué pasa en la cabeza de alguien que juega a juegos muy violentos tipo el superventas Grand Theft Auto? Esto apunta la evidencia:
Deselms y Altman (2003): Se les pedia a los jugadores, tras jugar, que dieran sentencias a diversas viñetas donde se veían crímenes. Tendían a dar penas menos severas que el grupo de control. Se observaba un sesgo de género: las mujeres seguían siendo más severas que los chicos, aunque el efecto citado afectaba a ambos géneros. Es decir: ellos se dejan más influenciar por cómo valoran después la gravedad de un crímen.
Singh trató de encontrar la correlación entre el nivel de violencia del juego y su traducción en actitudes más violentas. Sin ningún éxito. Lo único que encontró, y esto sí es interesante, es que los juegos más violentos producían más excitación que los menos violentos.
Y, por último, recuerdo una conferencia del grupo de inteligencia artificial de la UPF, donde exponían por qué existían cuatro tipos de videojuegos. No nos interesa mucho el razonamiento, pero sí el origen de los primeros juegos. Éstos (1970s-1985) eran del tipo marcianitos, matamatas orientados a chicos jóvenes (hombres) de 13 a 20 años, que por cuestiones biológicas necesitan liberar adrenalina (pensad en las consecuencias nefastas de no hacerlo: mal humor, impulsividad). Este tipo de juegos resultaba una vía de escape, como el deporte o el sexo lo es, a esa adrenalina. Y los juegos calificados de violentos hoy no son más que una reproducción muy realista, pero la filosofia de esos juegos es similar al marcianitos: entonces no escandalizaba matar un icono de 8x8 píxeles. Fijáos en el detalle...
En resumen, que al no encontrar que exista una correlación entre violencia y videojuegos violentos, no tiene sentido preguntarse acerca del mecanismo. Porque simplemente, no sucede. Y esto tomando grupos de control, muestras aleatorias de gente, etc. Si se dan "asesinos de la katana" no es por los juegos de rol ni los videojuegos, sino por la personalidad desviada, a priori, del personaje. Que se caracterice para realizar un asesinato solo le da un toque literario a la notícia, pero en un mundo sin juegos de rol simplemente habría navajeado a los padres. Y no busqueis asociaciones raras, que para eso está Pedro Jota.
Por otro lado, las posibilidades de educar mediante los juegos son infinitas, y ya están funcionando. Juegos com Simcity te enseñaban como gestionar una ciudad, o bien los recursos limitados. Los Sims te enseñaban a gestionar vidas. Europa Universalis es la mejor clase de historia que vayas a recibir nunca. Como decía una tesis en 2003: "Soon computer simulations will better than the real thing. Kids are already disappointed by the animals they see in zoos because the animals are sleeping instead of performing as they do on screen."
Y como sugería Wired no hace mucho: la única forma de viajar al pasado que nos ofrecerá la ciencia serán los videojuegos. En diez años serán tan perfectas las simulaciones de la realidad, que seremos incapaces, como en Matrix, de diferenciar ambos mundos. Y por supuesto, podremos cargar un programa para revivir la época que queramos, y sentirnos campesinos en la Francia prerrevolucionaria o comerciantes navales en el imperio romano. En la combinación entre videojuegos y tecnología está la promesa de un futuro más interesante, chicos.
Etiquetas: ciencia politica, curiosidades, salud
¿puede ser que en lugar de generar violencia lo que hace es insensibilizar?
lo digo porque el resultado que apuntas de Deselms y Alman parece que diga que los que juegan videos violentos acaban siendo más tolerantes con los crímenes...
interesante post, by the way!
Tu último comentario da alguna esperanza a las posibilidades de empleo de los historiadores.
Lo mismo dentro de 10 años gano para un mendrugo aunque sea recreando digitalmente las penalidades de las tipográficas a finales del XIX y la organización del obrerismo.
Draco.
Estoy de acuerdo con Lluis, lo que genera es impasibilidad y acotación de las conciencias.
Pero eso mismo generan las noticias de hambruna en áfrica, las películas violentas, y el todo vale de la política, ¿no?
Efectivamente, es muy probable que exponerse contínuamente a actos violentos nos conduzca a una insensibilización acerca de su gravedad. Pero no a ser más violentos. Este es el punto que quería remarcar.
Porque hay políticos (desde Hillary Clinton a Esperanza Aguirre, pasando por el PSOE) que día sí, día también tratan de hacer esa asociación y de regular una forma de ocio con sus manías paternalistas.
varias cosas:
1- decir que hay problemas mayores (TV) no implica que los videojuegos no lo sean. 13 horas (semanales?) me parece mucho.
2- no es lo mismo decir que el rock and roll (un baile) provoca violencia, que que decir que un juego donde se utilizan armas, uno se pone en el lugar de un asesino, y se rompen todas las barreras normativas existentes respecto a la violencia provoca violencia. Evidencia empirica aparte, que la hay, parece que el segundo argumento tiene bastante mas sentido, no? No me compares las criticas a los videojuegos violentos a esta cosa que llamas tu neofobos.
4. Haces bien en no fijarte en la evidencia macro porque seria muy erroneo sacar conclusiones de graficos como el que pones aqui. Esta claro que el nivel de crimen esta mucho mas determinado por medidas de seguridad, etc. (constraints) que por los incentivos individuales. Pero puestos a mostrar evidencia macro, por que no miramos datos de "bullying" en las escuelas? O de "violencia domestica"? Con todos los problemas de medicion que hay al respecto, parece que este tipo de violencia ha aumentado bastante en paises desarrollados en las ultimas decadas.
5- Hay mas evidencia de la que presentas, por parte de psicologos sociales, que muestran que los videojuegos violentos crean personas con mayores tendencias violentas. Tengo que buscar las fuentes, pero las hay. El tema esta en que con los videojuegos se rompen unos limites y si bien las personas, en la vida real, no llegan al extremo que les ensenya el videojuego, tienen mas facilidad para traspasar limites que previamente no traspasaban (es decir, igual no mataran con una pistola a nadie, pero pegaran, gritaran o maltrataran).
En fin, ya buscare las fuentes. Ahora mismo no tengo tiempo.
Por otro lado, por lo que respecta a los otros videojuegos, no les veo tant problema. El unico, la adiccion y el hacer perder el sentido del tiempo y la responsabilidad (esto puede llevar a dejar de trabajar, de estudiar, etc.). Problema similar con el de Internet y el de la TV, que creo que tambien pueden ser muy severos.
Sin acritud, que diría Felipe González, paso a desmontar tus puntos. :)
1. ADICCIÓN: 13 horas a la semana son menos de 70 minutos al día. Yo creo que como forma de ocio es un tiempo "para ti mismo" bastante moderado y razonable. Otra cosa es que a ti particularmente no te guste, o lo consideres una pérdida de tiempo.
2. BAILE: Las letras, el tipo de música, el carácter ritualístico de la música Rock, rompedor de normas sociales y de convenciones establecidas, lanzaba a los jóvenes a una anomía que podría traducirse en todo tipo de desórdenes y la 'ruina moral' de la sociedad. Ésto decían los bisabuelos de los yankees.
3. TE HAS DEJADO el punto 3. :)
4. Es muy fuerte que culpes a los videojuegos de la violencia doméstica. Cuando se sabe que si antes "no había" era por underreport, y que la edad media del 'violento' es elevada, en comparación con la edad media del jugador: 28 años. El asunto es que nadie sale de una peli de ciencia ficción creyéndose que puede volar. Y tampoco sale nadie de jugar a un juego creyendo que aquello era real. Tenemos un mecanismo mental para hacer el salto.
5. EVIDENCIA: Ni el Economist ni las teorías mainstream psicosociales ni yo (ya ves) hemos encontrado ninguna evidencia al respecto (violencia-videojuegos). ¡El punto es que sí hay evidencia en el sentido contrario! Sugieres que sí hay. Sería bueno que la mostraras. E instructivo. Pero mientras tanto, no cambiaré mi opinión.
En definitiva, el problema no es que generen violencia sino que puedan ser adictivos. En este sentido, el lema romano: uti, non abuti, viene de perlas. Es cierto que hay gente que vive pegada a ellos: y esto denota unos problemas psicológicos previos en su vida (incapacidad para socializar, desinterés por sus estudios, o tal vez una manera de escapar de un ambiente familiar problemático). Aunque también, como contaba, pueden ser instructivos (aprenderse la historia del sudeste asiático de esa manera es estupendo), y, aparte, porque al parecer ayudan a gente con problemas de atención. No los mires con desconfianza.
Perdonad por el rollo de nuevo.
No quería decir "es muy fuerte" en el punto 4, sino "es injusto". Que yo no me escandalizo. :D
no "he acusado a los videojuegos de la violencia domestica", solo digo que hay muchos tipos de violencia, que el crimen no es el unico. y precisamente que formas de violencia como el bullying o la violencia domestica no se pueden medir bien, pero que existen, y no sabemos hasta que punto los videojuegos violentos pueden tener alguna relacion con los mismos.
el Economist no es la unica fuente de conocimiento en esta vida, chicos.
buscare las otras fuentes.
ah, por cierto, respecto a la discusion de la hamburguesa del otro dia, en mi escuela teniamos una comida estupenda, con un menu preparado por nutricionistas, super equilibriada y deliciosa.
Alex, tu Deselms y Altman es inconsistente con tu argumento. Precisamente el objetivo de este artículo es apoyar la tesis de Laia... ¿te has leído bien el artículo?
Precisamente el estudio mira si jugar a videojuegos afecta a la "sensitivity of violent acts". Y encuentran: "those who played violent game gave more lenient sentences to criminals". Esto quiere decir que son más tolerantes a la violencia. La encuentran menos repudiable immoral, penable, etc. Eso no queda tan lejos de pensar que eventualmente su codigo moral no les impediría ejercerla con mayor frecuencia. No se si habra evidencia a tu favor alex, pero sin duda has dado con el articulo equivocado!
No sólo The Economist no es la única fuente, sino que si el artículo que Alex se refiere da como evidencia ese gráfico macro es para empezar a llorar. Quede por delante mi gran respeto a esta revista. Pero deberían despedir a ese redactor.
No me parece 70 min como algo alarmante. A veces estoy 70 min posteando en la moqueta...
Per favor! per favor! (como dice Puigcercós)Alex tu punto 2 no hay por donde cogerlo.
Lo de la violencia domestica... es posible, laia. Pero no de genero!! en todo caso violencia hijo-padre. Por lo que cuentan algunos educadores ahora para tener hijos hay que aprender Karate.
Lluís, si sigues leyendo el trabajo de Deselms y Altman, verás que lo único que consiguen demostrar es que la gente se vuelve menos intolerante (no menos sensible) con la violencia. Siempre condenan, igual que el grupo de control, pero a penas menos severas. Pero su experimento no encuentra una asociación entre comportamientos violentos y jugar a juegos.
--Mis padres jugaron a indios y vaqueros toda su infancia, que consiste en matar al otro y además, simular que te mueres-- y además hay un componente racista en el juego -- e imperialista --
Habría que ver que tipo de viñetas les mostraron (qué tipo de 'crímenes' les hacían ver). Sería sorprendente encontrar que la gente que juega a juegos violentos sea más comprensiva con pequeños hurtos tipo robar el bolso (aunque añado, la gracia de esos juegos no es que sean violentos, sino realistas).
El Economist no es fuente de nada. Es una revista, no un journal. Pero si alguna virtud le reconoceréis, es que antes de escribir un artículo se leen a fondo toda la literatura reciente en el tema. Incluso te presentan cosas que se acaban de publicar (para eso dan noticias). Por lo que si la evidencia que subrayan (y nunca citan articulos, pq son una revista y no un journal) dice que no hay relación, chicos... le voy a creer. Todavía no les he encontrado un fallo (sólo un sesgo liberal en los artículos de opinión).
si, con violencia domestica, me refiero a violencia dentro el hogar.
Alex, ahora estas siendo injusto.
Nos mandas una referencia que "sólo" apoya que quien juega videos violentos se vuelve más indugente con la violencia. Radicalmente en tu contra.
Pero no encuentra asociacion entre comportamientos violentos y jugar juegos porque esa no es su pregunta de investigación. Tampoco encuentran ninguna relación entre religiosidad y voto...
Pero su hallazgo, alex, es una corroboración un posible mecanismo causal entre juego violento y violencia.
No digo, alex, que haya una relación. Ni idea. Pero Deselms y Altman es más bien evidencia a favor.
(nota mental: la próxima vez, en vez de ser honesto y mostrar todo lo que es relevante, me callaré lo que no favorece mis argumentos) :)
Claro que Deselms y Altman no me dan la razón. Pero tampoco me la quitan.
Y no lo sé, pero creo que soy una de las personas más pacíficas de este planeta, y ese tipo de juego me divierten muchísimo. Y a mucha gente que conozco también. En toda esa discusión hay una confrontación de prejuicios muy fuerte, que es lo que quería subrayar.
Un abismo en las opiniones entre jugadores habituales y gente que lo mira de fuera. Que no significa nada, pq ambos están cualificados para opinar y alimentar el debate con experiencias distintas. Pero es curiosa la sociología de la academia, que como en los partidos, a veces la búsqueda de la verdad se transforma en un instrumento para tener la razón.
En todo caso, la cosa es que hay un mito muy fuerte y poco fundado sobre que juegos violentos=violencia y este post, con todas las acotaciones que queráis, trataba de mostrar que para nada está tan claro.
mirad que cosas pasan estos dias...
Sí, es impresionante como es la generación que llega. La laxitud educativa de los nuevos padres ha producido una generación llena de monstruos.
(Porque las chicas no suelen jugar a juegos, sólo a Los Sims desde que salió... jejeje)
Hola: Acabo de ver esto (USA Today: Violent video games don't make killer kids) y me he acordado de vosotros.
Saludos.
Mira es realmente facil saber, juega al grand theft auto o al manhunt, unas 4 horas diarias, durante un mes, si al final te haces mas violento, te felicito eres un mente debil. no puedes asociar VIOLENCIA con DIVERCION, las personas violentas son violentas por RENCOR, ENVIDIA entre otras cosas SOCIALES no por los video juegos, ya eso esta super comprobado. hasta luego
Estaba viendo la tele estos días post-matanza de Virginia Tech, y ya estaban en la tele sacando imágenes del Counter-Strike (un juego de terroristas vs contraterroristas de hace 10 años) como posible causa del desvario del koreano. Y eso que no le han encontrado ni un sólo juego en su casa o instalado en la computadora. Pero sabía que eso reabriría el interés mediático por violencia = videojuegos.
Estamos teniendo muchas visitas estos días al respecto
Hola amigos se esta luchando contra la violencia pero el gran problema es que hasta en los videojuegos se presenta mucha vilencia y muertes y nuestros hijos aman estos juegos.
Por mi cuenta puedo decir que no estoy en el 100% si afectaran o no lo harán... Yo sinceramente he jugado violentos videojuegos y no ha cambiado mi forma de ser, sigo siendo la persona tranquila que soy... tal vez que aunmentan el nivel de interes y adrenalina cuando se juegan por la gran accion que presentan pero por otra parte hay juegos que si no se merman de niños, estos pueden crecer y educandose con esto... ahi es donde afecta...
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You are right in your analysis. I don’t think it’s all due to the game that makes people violent, and a person’s growth environment will greatly determine a person’s character, so you can’t put all the faults on the game. The game is a Makes people happy.
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